MR. RUSSERT: And, “Yes, we were wrong about the secular violence between the Shiites and Shunnis—Sunnis, but we’re all in this together”? Would that be helpful?

SEN. McCAIN: I think the president has been doing that. He’s acknowledged many of the mistakes in the last several months, a series of speeches that he’s given, he has knowledged—acknowledged several mistakes that have been made. Maybe he could do a little more. But I think he has been laying out fairly eloquently the challenge that we face in Iraq and the consequences of it. But again, every...

MR. RUSSERT: Secretary Rice said...

SEN. McCAIN: Yeah. Sure.

MR. RUSSERT: Secretary Rice said there were strategic mistakes. There were, there were some fundamental misjudgments.

SEN. McCAIN: Yes. In not the initial phase, but certainly as to what would be required to make sure that we kept any insurgency under control and allowed them to make a transition to a democratic form of government, which they have never known before. But could I just—I’m not excusing any of those mistakes. Mistakes are made in every war. General MacArthur assured President Truman that the Chinese would not invade across the Yalu, the beginning of World War II. The key is to fix those mistakes. We are beginning to fix a number of those mistakes that were made then, and it’s long and it’s hard and it’s tough.

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MR. RUSSERT: Tom Friedman said it was criminally negligent by the secretary of Defense not to have more troops. Do you agree?

SEN. McCAIN: I wouldn’t use that language, but I do believe that it was a very, very serious strategic mistake when we didn’t have enough troops over there to maintain control of a large country. I would remind you that the first couple of three, four months after the initial military victory things were relatively quiet. We didn’t, we didn’t protect the oil pipeline refineries and lines enough. But Iraqis now view themselves as Iraqis first, Shia, Sunni and Kurd second. There is a desire on the part of the Iraqi people to have a democratic government. That’s why they had such a good voter turnout. There are signs of progress, there’s economic improvement. But I do want to repeat, the American people should realize what’s at stake here. And I think, overall, the American people and my friends on the other side of the aisle recognize that we have to succeed.

MR. RUSSERT: It could tip into total chaos?

SEN. McCAIN: Well, I think it could, but I don’t think it will. I don’t think it will. I think we are, we are muddling through, as, as Mr. Churchill used to say.

MR. RUSSERT: But the fact is, if the United States Senate knew today...

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: ...what the facts are—no WMD...

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: ...the costs of the war, the burdens of the war...

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: ...the Senate wouldn’t vote for the war.

SEN. McCAIN: I don’t know if they would or not. But I know that Saddam Hussein had acquired and used weapons of mass destruction, that every indication of his desires, his ambitions and his efforts were to acquire weapons of mass destruction and use them again. We had an Oil-for-Food scandal in the billions of dollars, the sanctions were not working; they were breaking down, so...

MR. RUSSERT: But he was not an imminent threat.

SEN. McCAIN: I wouldn’t say that he was—because we know now, or we’re pretty sure that he had no weapons of mass destruction, but did he pose a threat? Absolutely, in my view.

MR. RUSSERT: In what way?

SEN. McCAIN: He had attempted to and used weapons of mass destruction in the past. He had invaded Kuwait and occupied Kuwait. He had killed thousands of people with weapons of mass destruction, and there’s no doubt in anybody’s mind that he was trying to acquire and would eventually use them again.

MR. RUSSERT: But not nearly as far along in his programs as had been suggested?

SEN. McCAIN: That’s right. There was a colossal intelligence failure. But I want to point out, that intelligence failure was shared by the British, the French, the German, the Israelis. Every intelligence agency in the world believed that he had weapons of mass destruction.

MR. RUSSERT: In November of ‘05, you talked about support for the war from the American people, and you said, “If we can’t retain the support of the American people, we will have lost this war as soundly as if our forces were defeated on the battlefield.” Here’s our latest NBC...

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: ...Wall Street Journal poll: Is the war in Iraq worth it?

Thirty-nine percent say yes, 51 percent, a majority, say not worth it.

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: Have the American people now turned against the war?

SEN. McCAIN: I think the American people are very nervous, they’re disappointed in our lack of progress, and that’s why we’ve got to show progress. I think that when you ask the American people whether we should pull out immediately, most of them say no, most of them say no, because they realize the consequences of failure. So it’s the job of people like me and others who may be respected in this area to point out the benefits of success and the consequences of failure. So, when you hear of 2,300-and-some young Americans who’ve given their lives, of course, Americans say that, quote, “It wasn’t worth it.” You talk to those young men and women who are doing the fighting over there, and they’ll tell you they think they’re fighting in a noble cause, and I believe they are.

MR. RUSSERT: The Christian Science Monitor reporter Jin—Jill Carroll’s been released.

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: Here’s pictures of her arriving in Germany carrying the orange and blue bag. She made some tapes, which have now been released, where she’s critical of the United States, critical of the war. She’s saying that she was in captivity and did those under duress. You were someone who was imprisoned in Vietnam.

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: What should the American people be thinking when they’re watching those tapes?

SEN. McCAIN: I think they should be thinking that this was a young woman who found herself in a terrible, terrible position, and we are glad she’s home. We understand when you’re held captive in that kind of situation that you do things under duress. And God bless her, and we’re glad she’s home.

MR. RUSSERT: And not listen or take those seriously?

SEN. McCAIN: I would not take them seriously. I would not. Any more than we took seriously other tapes and things that were done in other prison situations, including the Vietnam War.

MR. RUSSERT: We now have information that the Russians took our battle plans for Iraq and gave them to Saddam Hussein. In light of that, should the president of the United States go to the G8 Economic Summit in Russia in July?

SEN. McCAIN: I, I have felt that we should not include Russia in the G8, but present—it’s a—I, I shouldn’t dictate that to the president or the...

MR. RUSSERT: But you would boycott.

SEN. McCAIN: I would probably do that, yes, because—not just because of the plans to Iraq: the repression of his own people; the recent elections in Belarus that he has been supporting the most Stalinistic dictator in Europe; interference in Ukraine; that—the repression of, of a free press and the autocracy; the restoration of the Russian empire; and, very seriously, the failure so far to really cooperate with us in addressing the threat of Iranian acquisition of nuclear weapons, development of nuclear weapons. So I have been very disappointed in President Putin. I think that we’ve got to respond in some way. And the glimmerings of democracy are very faint in Russia today, and so I would be very harsh.

MR. RUSSERT: The president said he looked into his soul and found him to very honest and very straightforward.

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: Is the president wrong?

SEN. McCAIN: I think that the president is realizing more and more that Putin is...

MR. RUSSERT: Not honest and not straightforward.

SEN. McCAIN: If, if not, if not honest, certainly an autocrat who is seeking the consolidation of power with his old buddies from the KGB. I think the president’s very concerned and has expressed those concerns about behavior on the part of the Russian government. Look, we all say things that are stupid. I’m going to probably say several more this morning, so I—the president probably...

MR. RUSSERT: So that was, in your words, stupid of the president to say?

CONTINUED

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